Saturday, January 25, 2014

Deceased Non-Orthodox Jews Undeserving of Honors?

Click to enlarge.
     This is not a post about Israeli politics. This is a post about decency. The picture included with this post is from a letter from Y. Friedman to the editor of Hamodia, the nearly hundred-year old "daily newspaper for Torah Jewry." This is not a paper that the ultra-orthodox don't take seriously--if you visit neighborhoods like Monsey, New York, you'll see many houses marked with the Hamodia box for home delivery.
     The "About Me" section of Hamodia's website justifies the position in this letter quite clearly. They state that the purpose of their newspaper is "to assist in the critical battle against the strong winds of assimilation that threatened the very foundations of our nation. In this struggle for survival, these Gedolim and others recognized the power of a Torah-true newspaper as the appropriate response to the lure of the spiritual war being waged against the Torah camp by popular youth movements."1 This makes perfect sense for the Haredi audience targeted with its ultra-orthodox-centric "Torah perspective."2 With that understanding in place, it's understandable that this newspaper would not want to bestow any postmortem honors on someone who did not live an orthodox life.
     Let's back up for a second.
     The Hebrew term "zichrono levracha," abbreviated "z"l," means "of blessed memory" and is often used to denote a non-rabbinical figure of good character. Hamodia's use of the term after Ariel Sharon's name prompted reader Y. Friedman to write to the newspaper stating that he/she
was astonished and astounded to see that [Hamodia] honored Sharon with a very undeserving title "z"l" (Zichrono Levracha.) Even though the writer attempts to describe him as a very proud Jew, it seems to be quite irrelevant when the proud one is actually not practicing what he's proud of. Hamodia, being an orthodox paper with Torah values should of [sic] not honored an unorthodox person with this title. 3
     Hamodia's editor agreed with the writer of the letter that it was an "oversight" that a person who was not orthodox was given this honor. I thought about the baalei teshuva (newly religious) readers of Hamodia who might have non-orthodox family and might find Hamodia's stance to be offensive. I thought about the people involved in kiruv who read and support this newspaper. I thought of the potential BT's (baalei teshuva) who might find this article while spending a Shabbos at the house of an orthodox family and be put off by such a statement. Who gave Hamodia's editorial staff the right to decide who is of blessed memory and who is not? Why not err on the side of tactfulness? Why create a further embarrassment (chilul Hashem with your coffee, anyone?) by publicly passing judgement on whether or not someone should be given honors and by retracting honors given? Instead of backing the writer of the original article, the editorial staff apologized and took the stance that non-orthodox Jews do not deserve honors after death. Hamodia could have easily taken the high road and not even printed this letter. Instead, they opted to widen the rift between orthodox and non-orthodox Jews. I am not in favor of deceptive kiruv, but I'm puzzled as to why such a widely read publication would not take the opportunity to bring people closer to Judaism or just leave them alone, but instead play the "us and them" card.  It seems like there may be a bulb out in this light unto nations.


1. Hamodia. About Us. accessed January 25, 2014.
2. ibid.

3. Y. Friedman. Letters to the Editor. Hamodia. January 23, 2014. (note: at the time of publication of this blog, this letter did not appear on the online version of Hamodia. The picture submitted is from the print version only.)

60 comments:

  1. Not surprising.... When we were working on getting our adopted kids their geyrious (Conversion), the "rov" we were working with, Dov Brisman, said to me the following during on of the many sessions in which he turned up away. "I want to make sure I'm not adding to the Jewish PROBLEM". When I inquired what that was, he replied "The conservative/reform movements". Even though but then we were 10 years frum, I found that highly offensive. Very UN-Kiruv like. Matter of fact, would go on to say that meeting with Rabbi (sic) Dov Brisman was defining moment in which we decided to leave orthodoxy.

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    1. That is horrible. I recall sitting in kiruv-type classes in Jerusalem, in which I had to overlook negative comments about Reform and Conservative Jews spewed out by the otherwise very engaging rabbi. To this day, I don't know why I kept going and ignored those statements. I should have protested against them. I'm glad that you had the guts to leave when you encountered such derision aimed at you and your kids.

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    2. That is straight up loshon horah! And a really stupid reason for leaving orthodoxy,
      ~Yocheved (convert through R' Brisman and NEVER heard a bad word about anyone from him)

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  2. Arrogant and sad.
    May I suggest a book? It's an academic book but one written for a general audience. Becoming Frum (2012) by Sarah Bunin Benor is an ethnographic study of new BTs. The tone is respectful, detached, and neutral. I wish we'd read the book (and your blog) before we were rushed into an eruv! dgb

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    1. Thanks for the book recommendation. I think I viewed a lecture by Sarah Bunin Benor on this topic, and her website looks very interesting. I'll look into the book! And hang in there, dgb.

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  3. Bec - but this is how the orthodox world at large views non-orthodox Jews, so why would it be better for them to lie. At least they are being honest. This blog is about kiruv and being deceptive. If the editor would have done and song and dance around the ZL then wouldn't that have been deceptive?

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    1. I think that I am mostly surprised that a decision was made by the editorial staff that one cannot confer this title on a non-orthodox Jew. Is there a halacha (Jewish law) stating that this is reserved only for the orthodox? I'm not convinced that there is. On a forum that I post in, someone mentioned that a Lubavitch rabbi (I'm not being specific because I do not have permission to re-post the comment) he heard speak honored fallen non-orthodox Jews using terms that Hamodia believes should be reserved for only the orthodox.

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    2. Bec, they're just pissed off at Sharon's definition of who-is-a-Jew; when asked, he said his definition is "anyone who serves in Golani." ;-)

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  4. Many of our greatest Sages (including Haredi Gedolim) have referred to all fallen Israeli soldiers as Kedoshim, holy ones. For someone to be zealous in insisting that we not use Z'L to refer to a man who lived his life for his people is not only disturbing but disgusting. Bec, for once I wish your tone had been even harsher.

    Disturbed,

    AM

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    1. Thanks, AM. Maybe I should have been harsher. Your response is perfect.
      When such a widely read paper takes this stance, it does a disservice to all Jews. Statements like these only serve to alienate whole groups of people and are not productive to any cause. I'm just as disturbed about the whole thing as you. As usual, I appreciate your response. (And how about that? We agree!)

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  5. What does Jewish law say? This discussion is pointless without first ascertaining that.

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  6. At least it wasn't yemach shemo, I mean shemoi, lol

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  7. This is who they are. I'm tired of hearing that it's only a few hard-liners, that the majority of Haredim aren't like that, etc. I don't believe it; I come across too many of them online, on a regular basis, to accept that these are isolated phenomena.

    The long predicted schism has already occurred. We now have two distinct religions and religious subcultures - liberal Judaism and a Haredi-comandeered Orthodoxy. It's time to acknowledge it and move on. The liberal Modern Orthodox (who are all that remain of Modern Orthodoxy, as the right wingers and so-called "centrists" are now Haredi in all but name) have been hopping back and forth across the divide for generations, trying to placate those on either side. They now have to decide, once and for all, for whose team they wish to play. Unfortunately, they will almost certainly choose the Haredi side, and it will result in the end of their movement.

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  8. Cipher -- II know of whom you speak because I've had some unpleasant discussions with them on FB. But they seem to be more in NY than in Israel -- the "right wing" of Modern Orthodoxy-becoming-Chardal/Ultraorthodox is getting a lot of push back here. They're a fringe here, but are berated constantly for their adoption of needless ultra-O stringencies which have never had a place in MO. The publicity they get is all out of proportion to their numbers and that's because of their noisy rabbis. There is also a stream called MO-lite, which is more easy-going and far less judgmental than traditional MO.

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  9. Rebecca, I have to ask you - what exactly is the purpose of this type of post?

    I have noticed that you seem to have 2 types of posts (generally speaking). (1) Deceptive methods used in Kiruv and (2) the ugly parts of Orthodox and/or Ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

    I understand your mission in the first type of posts that you publish, but I am not sure I understand the second type (which this post about Ariel Sharon is).

    If you think it is your duty to point out deceptive methods Kiruv Professionals use to lure in potential mekuravim, to help educate people before they get involved in something they might think twice about, I understand that. But when you blog about things that just seem to be bad-mouthing the Orthodox world, to me that seems blatantly not nice. There are ugly sides in every culture and religion, so there is no need (in my opinion) to point them out specifically about the Orthodox Jewish community.

    If you will tell me that (based on the title of your blog) that its because these are things your Rabbi won't tell you, I don't really think that makes it appropriate to bad-mouth an entire group of people. There are many sources anyone can use to find the dirt about the Orthodox Jewish community (various newspapers, blogs, hearsay, etc). In my opinion, your blog does not need to be another forum for that type of information.

    And on top of it all (again, in my opinion), these types of posts put a bad taste in mouth and it makes it a little harder to accept the first type of posts. It almost portrays you to be "anti-Kiruv" and "anti-Orthodox" (which I have seen you write a few times that you are not) as opposed to just "anti-deceptive Kiruv."

    I am not sure if I have made my question clear, but in short, what I am trying to ask is why do you think that it is part of your duties in this blog to post about the ugly side of Orthodox Judaism?

    Looking forward to your response.
    Thanks
    Aron

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    1. It's indicative of the mindset within the Haredi world in general. This, of course, is never made clear to potential BT's, who are encouraged to beleive the Haredi world not only has few if any problems, but is actually a sort of black-hatted utopia.

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    2. Great question, Aron. Considering that it is the Haredi world who subscribes to Hamodia and who is represented by this newspaper, and considering that it is also the Haredi world who engages in active kiruv and supports large kiruv organizations, it is important to understand how they view the non-orthodox Jewish population. This doesn't bad-mouth orthodox Jews at all. It provides a unique look into how the non-orthodox are viewed through the lens of a publication which boasts a large Haredi readership. Just as one cannot look at an historical event and understand it without understanding the cultural and political aspects of such an event, one cannot understand ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach without understanding certain aspects of society which help to show why the ultra-orthodox feel that such kiruv is necessary, and how they actually feel about those who are not orthodox. I hope that answers your question.

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    3. While I'm usually the first one to object to any unfair criticism, I agree with Rebecca on this one.

      Hamodia is not the only opinion in the Haredi world, but it is one of the few papers that is considered "kosher" reading, and it is widely read within the Haredi community. So, to a certain extent, their policies are a reflection of the wider community of their readership.

      I have no idea why Hamodia took this position. There are certain terms reserved for rabbinic figures, martyrs, etc., but this is not one of them. I've never heard anyone suggest that it's only for frum Jews.

      I'd like to see the fallout from this, because it will show the fault lines in the Haredi community. I suspect that some of this may be more political than just religious - the religious Zionist would be more likely to see Sharon's military service as something righteous, while those who are anti-Zionist would have the opposite view. [Unless, of course, the letter writer was deeply opposed to the Gaza withdrawal...]

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    4. Hi Rebecca,

      Thank you for explaining that. That actually answers my question very nicely.

      Aron

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  10. As an orthodox kiruv worker myself (beware!), I can vouch that unfortunately most orthodox Jews don't think about the non-orthodox at all. Recognizing their mission as Jews, they are focused on themselves and their immediate families. The fact that distantly related non-orthodox Jews are shirking their responsibility of furthering the Jewish mission just means to them that they have to intensify their own efforts. When a powerful Jewish politician, who could have done amazing things to further the Jewish cause and didn't (to say the least), is presented to them with blessings, they are understandably offended. After all, they are passionately giving all of their resources towards the pursuit of the Jewish mission, while this man, and all the rest of the non-orthodox, contribute almost nothing and often just the opposite.
    It is a precious few who are inspired to join the kiruv movement. It is those who feel that the non-orthodox are my brothers and sisters. How can I watch them miss the opportunity of a lifetime?
    It is the goal of every kiruv professional to see every Jew completely committed to the Jewish mission - to bring honor to the name of G-d. and when we've succeeded with every Jew, we will get to work on the non-Jews.
    As I see that you care very deeply for the non-orthodox Jews, I beg of you to join in our education efforts and to reach out to all the Jews of G-d's chosen nation.
    Respectfully,
    Shneur Feldman
    Oak Park, MI

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    1. Thanks for your reply. However, the issue in the original letter to the editor was never that Sharon himself was not worthy of honors, but specifically that an "unorthodox Jew" was not worthy of such honors. While an argument can be made either way for Sharon specifically to receive "z''l" following his name, it isn't. The writer simply complains that because "he is not practicing what he is proud of"--in this case, Judaism, as viewed by the writer.
      Since you are involved in kiruv, you might be able to answer this. Is there any halacha that states that a deceased non-orthodox Jew cannot receive a zichrono levracha at the end of his/her name? Any sources would be appreciated. Thanks.

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    2. Rebecca is far too patient with you people. I found your post so utterly offensive that words very nearly fail me. "It is the goal of every kiruv professional to see every Jew completely committed to the Jewish mission"? Who in the bloody hell are you to make that kind of decision about my life, or the lives of my children? You are precisely the sort of person from whom unsuspecting young people need to be protected.

      From your first name and your condescending manner, I think it's a fairly safe bet you're a Lubavitcher. Chabad is a cult and an abomination. Your dead rebbe is responsible for more heartache among liberal Jewish families than the leader of any other Hasidic sect. Your activities should be illegal.

      I beg of you to join in our education efforts and to reach out to all the Jews of G-d's chosen nation.

      I have a better idea. Mind your own business and leave other people's souls alone.

      You're a brainwashed lunatic. Now toddle off and pray to your dead moshiach for my poor, lost neshomoh.

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    3. Cipher, thank you for saying what I could not put into words. I was too enraged.

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    4. It is enraging. No one does condescension like the frum.

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    5. This line made me laugh: "As I see that you care very deeply for the non-orthodox Jews, I beg of you to join in our education efforts and to reach out to all the Jews of G-d's chosen nation."
      My guess is that his goal was to derail the conversation and refocus it so that he could later say "hey, look, they're all anti-orthodox." Of course, he's baiting everyone by insulting non-orthodox Jews here: "After all, they are passionately giving all of their resources towards the pursuit of the Jewish mission, while this man, and all the rest of the non-orthodox, contribute almost nothing and often just the opposite." Of course, Mr. Feldman must realize that he's stated that he's a kiruv worker, which is fine, but has then insulted the very people he wants to bring back to orthodoxy. Very self-defeating behavior, in my humble opinion.

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    6. cipher was right about this guy.

      http://www.shabbat.com/profile/3947b865c8a4499ca1eb2eb4a8a7662f/

      hide your kids!

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    7. I usually tend to be an observer when reading other people's conversations (I enjoy hearing all sides and thinking about it on my own). However, for this one, I am compelled to respond as well.

      Cipher - I think you went over the top when speaking to Shneur Feldman. Your language was harsh and your manner was far more condescending this his was. You said that, "Rebecca is far too patient with you people." Rebecca does an amazing job at keeping her tone respectful. You, on the other hand, did not hold anything back. Shneur took your (and other's) insults in stride and responded to them honestly and respectfully. I think you owe Shneur an apology. This blog has a very respectful atmosphere and I would appreciate if you would think twice about your responses so as not to ruin that atmosphere.

      Rebecca - I have seen a few times that you have called out kiruv professionals for acting like bullies and being condescending. I think it would be fair to treat those that are anti-kiruv professionals the same way.

      Thank you.

      Aron

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    8. Over the top? People like Schneur are predators, and they are empowered by people like you who cover for them.

      I'll tell you what, Aron. When Schneur apologizes to every liberal family he's torn apart by indoctrinating its naive, vulnerable, unprepared son or daughter, then come back and talk to me about my conduct.

      Seriously, grow up.

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  11. Shneur Feldman, can I point out the obvious that as a kiruv worker you think about distantly related non orthodox Jews enough to make a career out of recruiting them into ultra orthodoxy?

    You mentioned the "Jewish Mission" several times. I was not aware that Jews had a mission. What is the Jewish Mission that you refer to?

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    1. At least Feldman openly admits he is a missionary.

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  12. I would just like to ad that the term z''l is not ONLY given to jewish (observant or not) it may also be used for righteous gentiles as well. That whole interchange gives me nightmares.

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    1. Many thanks, Chaya, for clearing this up. That is what I suspected, and what I've seen. It's good to see other people stating this.

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    2. All it really means is, "of blessed memory" or "may his/her memory be for a blessing". Who the hell are the Orthodox to think they own the phrase?

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    3. See, that's what I knew. And yet, they have no problem publicly stating that it is not for those who are not orthodox. That makes thinking people question as to whether or not there is any basis for this. And it makes people who don't think for themselves accept blindly (and repeat) that z''l can only be used for the orthodox.

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  13. I see lots of quotes from my post, but none quoting my opening line of "unfortunately most orthodox Jews don't think about the non-orthodox at all." They don't think highly of them or lowly of them - they don't stop to think about them at all. And that is very unfortunate. You want to understand their view of the non-orthodox population as stated in your response to Aron. My paragraph was intended to help you to be understanding of their viewpoint. I am confident that the letter writer in that newspaper does not object to using z"l on people other than observant Jews, and his point is to be taken in context of what it was written.
    An anonymous poster wants to know what the Jewish mission is? Our mission is to [be a role model for the world as to how to] bring honor to G-d's name.
    Respectfully,
    Shneur Feldman
    Oak Park, MI

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    1. Shneur, you state: "I am confident that the letter writer in that newspaper does not object to using z"l on people other than observant Jews, and his point is to be taken in context of what it was written."
      Your confidence is fabulous, but that doesn't erase that the line has not been taken out of context at all. The letter writer doesn't complain about Sharon's political leanings being a problem, causing him to not merit the z''l. The writer complains that it is specifically because Sharon is not practicing orthodox Judaism, making him unworthy of such a title. You can wish he meant whatever you'd like him to mean, but that doesn't erase the statements made in Hamodia, both by the letter writer, and the editorial staff supporting and promoting the letter writer's opinion.

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    2. > They don't think highly of them or lowly of them - they don't stop to think about them at all.

      While it's true most in the frum world don't spend much time thinking about non-Orthodox Jews, there is a prevalent attitude that they are inferior. Even the MO are seen as inferior in the yeshivish world, and chassidim deride even the yeshivish as "moderne,"

      To pretend that the average frum person has a neutral attitude towards those who don't conform to his preferred mode of practice is disingenuous.

      Do you honestly believe that the frum world doesn't look down on frie yidden, or do you think that the readers of this site are strangers to the frum community, and figured you could stretch the truth a bit?

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  14. i am surprised that this bothers or surprises anyone. par for the course

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    1. I don't think anyone is particularly surprised that this belief is out there, but maybe surprised that such a large publication would be so bold as to print it and then agree with it.

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  15. The Jewish mission is to bring honor to God's name?

    So then why deceptively recruit kids into ultra orthodox Judaism and frequently destroy families, who are already Jewish, in the process?

    Could it be that like the Westboro Baptist Church who brings honor to God's name by protesting military funerals, that you also have a narrow, skewed and harmful interpretation of what brings honor to God's name?

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  16. If we are in agreement that our mission is to bring honor to G-d's name, then you are correct in positing the next obvious question. What brings honor to G-d's name?
    Shneur Feldman
    Oak Park, MI

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    1. Shneur, First: I am NOT, let me repeat, NOT, in agreement that "our" mission is to bring honor to God's name. How dare you try to lump me in with the likes of you, Shneur! You're a kiruv worker, essentially a cult leader. I am NOT. I will not be dragged down into the gutter with you. Don't use my name or associate me with the likes of you. I am not part of your "team." There is no "us." There is no "we." There is no "our."

      Secondly: I don't believe in God.

      Third: I could have been born black instead, but I was born Jewish. Being born Jewish doesn't put me on a mission to honor an imaginary friend in the sky any more than being born black would have made me a Black Panther.

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    2. You raise legitimate concerns. I would be glad to continue this conversation via email. sfeldman.oakparkmi@gmail.com

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    3. Why not discuss this out in the open Shneur? Are you afraid that I'll "out" your lies and deceit?

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  17. Aron--good point.
    This discussion will get nowhere if we're not respectful of each other. The fact that we're even all entering into a conversation together is a big deal. Hopefully it will be productive and we can all walk away with a better understanding of each others' positions.

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    1. Yeah, you weren't too bothered by my tone yesterday.

      I'm taking my leave, and I won't be back. Thank you for your hospitality.

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    2. I'm not bothered by your tone today either. In fact, your comments are generally the ones I'd like to make (and I probably would be making if this wasn't my blog) but I'm trying to maintain a diplomatic tone. Just tossing out a general "be nice" out there.

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    3. Cipher, you've given voice to people like me who are regularly trampled by kiruv and are less articulate and less brave. I lost an entire child to kiruv. I don't know what is worse than that. I fight kiruv as much as I possibly can & am regularly beaten up, disparaged, dismissed, made light of, ignored, threatened, blamed, ridiculed, snickered at - you name it - for my position. It's hard and frequently demoralizing, but we ARE making progress. I need your help and this entire movement needs your help. You make some of the best points of anyone I read. PLEASE come back either as you, in a new identity or anonymously. AC

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    4. Cipher (if you will even be reading this) - My point was just that I think you should speak to kiruv professionals with the same respect and manners that you demand from them. I am not sure why that makes you want to leave this blog.

      Rebecca - I have to say that I am very surprised and disappointed in your response to Cipher. Since I have been following your blog, I always thought that your manner in conversing with other people (especially those that disagree with you) was coming from a genuine place of respect for each individual to have his/her own opinion. Now I see that your only reason for writing with your manners was to "maintain a diplomatic tone," i.e. to be politically correct. You just showed a different side of you that in my opinion seriously jeopardizes the legitimacy of this entire blog.

      I thought this blog was a place to bring up real issues about Kiruv and discuss them in a productive manner. Now, it seems like this blog is just another one (of the plenty) of blogs that's mission is to bash, ridicule, and step on the Kiruv movement in particular and Orthodox Judaism in general.

      Ironically, Cipher decided to leave this blog because he thinks you are "too patient with these people." I am considering leaving this blog because I think you are too close-minded to people of other opinions. Like I said, I am extremely disappointed.

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    5. di·plo·ma·cy
      noun \də-ˈplō-mə-sē\

      : the work of maintaining good relations between the governments of different countries

      : skill in dealing with others without causing bad feelings
      Full Definition of DIPLOMACY
      1
      : the art and practice of conducting negotiations between nations
      2
      : skill in handling affairs without arousing hostility : tact

      Yes, I try to maintain a diplomatic tone because I was taught to think before I speak and the only way to get respect is to give it. On occasion, some of the comments that people post here are extremely offensive. It's amazing that I'm able to be respectful and hold a conversation. Perhaps if this wasn't my blog, and I was reading some of what I find offensive, I might be moved to speak in a harsher tone. Then again, I might just not comment at all. I'm sorry if my intent to maintain a discussion while exercising tact and restraint is offensive.

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    6. Aron, get over yourself.

      I never understood this blog to be a "place to bring up real issues about Kiruv and discuss them in a productive manner."

      Scan to the top of this page & you'll see "This blog exists to educate students and their parents about kiruv, outreach professionals, their supporters, their practices, and their motives."

      We're not at church so stop whining about people's manners like a priggish Church Lady. And in case you're new to blogging, blogs are not Democracies.

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    7. Will someone kindly post links to sites that bash, ridicule and step on the kiruv movement?

      Asher

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  18. Replies
    1. Hodu Hashem,
      Who gave you the right to determine who is a rasha and who isn't? If you are a believer, then you know that you are not entitled to judge. Surely you wouldn't be trying to do a deity's job.

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    2. Maybe so, but that's not what the letter writer said. The letter says, "Hamodia, ...should of [sic] not honored an unorthodox person with this title," not, "Sharon was a rasha who shouldn't be honored."

      Unless your making the argument that every non-Orthodox person is a rasha. In which case, 1. There are many prominent rabbonim down through the ages who disagree, and 2. That's a disgusting attitude that is exactly the kind of thing this blog is trying to warn people about.

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  19. bed - this is slightly OT, but I noticed a few posters in the comments talking about families being destroyed, losing "an entire child", etc.

    I'm wondering if this should be a future topic or series of topics. How do different kiruv groups handle the issue of relationships with family? Which groups give advice that might be particularly toxic? What things in particular destroy families? What are the best strategies for parents who want to retain close relationships with their newly-frum kids?

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    1. Those are great ideas, Law Mom. I will definitely post on those topics!

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  20. Law mon, you sound like a newly frum kid is a fait accompli and everyone just has to deal with it. That attitude ignores the possibility that kids can become un-frum, go OTD, or just go back to their old lives. Kiruv professionals make similar statements & add to that ultimatums that suggest if parents want to have relationships with their kids again they God Damn well better come on board because they are running the show now. It is an arrogant, dismissive and cruel way to refer to kids under the influence of cult-like leaders.

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  21. Are we talking about a "kid" who is still in high school, or someone over 18?

    Anyone over 18 is legally an adult, and the simple reality is that they don't need parental approval or permission for anything.

    Of course, college kids can change their minds! If they have kept good relationships with their families all along, this will be an easier process as they will have a support system in place and feel that they can change without losing face with their family. If they don't have good relationships, it will be much harder for them, and they may resist reconnecting with family even if they need them.

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  22. Nothing is the good in those searching because every one are the best to do for their self and also for their own purpose.

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Your respectful comments are welcome.