tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post5205875173997338621..comments2023-10-23T14:16:46.342-04:00Comments on Jewish Outreach: What Your Rabbi Isn't Telling You: All of the Benefits, None of the Kool-Aid: A Review of D. Gutbezahl's Article on Kiruvbechttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-91203128658596383102014-02-18T09:41:44.979-05:002014-02-18T09:41:44.979-05:00You have a rosier view of regular law than I do, a...You have a rosier view of regular law than I do, after 20 years in the field.<br /><br />Laws are not universal. They vary by jurisdiction. Can you easily access an abortion in a clinic? Can two people of the same sex get married? Can you treat a child with severe epilepsy using medical marijuana? Can a teacher paddle a student? How much child support or alimony will be ordered in a divorce case? These answers will be different depending on where you are.<br /><br />Not every country has the right to bear arms, and the only clear-cut purpose that I see to it is to keep gun-related death higher in the US than in Canada or the UK.<br /><br />As for itty bitty details - have you read tax law or the detailed regulations to any law?Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-56778879089502354042014-02-17T18:27:56.919-05:002014-02-17T18:27:56.919-05:00Regular law (e.g. The right to bear arms, prohibit...Regular law (e.g. The right to bear arms, prohibition to cross a red light) are universal and serve clear-cut purposes. All the little itty bitty details of Jewish law that are being force fed in kiruv (e.g. Tzniut) are not. In fact it isn't even clear-cut what the actual laws are, what people do is build 20 fences around fences presenting it as God given law. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-91796781061864291202014-02-17T17:35:53.475-05:002014-02-17T17:35:53.475-05:00They just want Jews to become law-abiding citizens...They just want Jews to become law-abiding citizens, from a Jewish point of view. It's like when the gov't takes out public service messages saying, like, pay your taxes, buckle up, etc. If you don't think it's important, and aren't interested in why other people think it's important, then ignore them. If you want to hear why they think that Jews have to follow Jewish law, then listen to what they say. It's not going to harm you.<br /><br />Do you really think our motto should be "timeo Judeos et dona ferentes"?Reb Yidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18214456185971788987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-8134168620303940442014-02-09T00:32:28.030-05:002014-02-09T00:32:28.030-05:00> This whole site is nothing but a way to deal ...> This whole site is nothing but a way to deal with your pain. To actually start a blog about this issue must signify that you are in great pain. I feel for you and wish you true comfort. <br /><br />Oh please.<br /><br />“Your whole kiruv effort is nothing but a way to deal with your pain. To actually start an outreach organization to try and convince other people that your way of life is the “right” one must signify that you are in great pain and deeply unsure about your life choices. I feel for you and wish you true comfort.”<br /><br />Anyone can play this game.<br />G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-52399188378128755012014-02-08T00:54:09.789-05:002014-02-08T00:54:09.789-05:00mitch, i am in pain because i can't believe my...mitch, i am in pain because i can't believe my coreligionists (orthodox) are such ding dongs.<br />before kiruv i thought judaism was this incredibly on-the-mark religion because it did not believe in something as stupid as a messiah (I was pretty ignorant.)<br />it did not believe in a literal G-d given Bible. <br />It did not believe that one would lose out on an afterlife if one didn't conform.<br />it did not believe in censorship, fear of evil-ution, creationism, young universe.<br />then i met very nice ding dongs like yourself. i like you, i have friends and family like you, i enjoy the company. <br />but you are all just ding dongs who fear the world, cannot allow anyone inside the shtetl to read or gain exposure to outside views and voices, fear college, fear difference, can't have any of your claims of a superior religion be tested or evaluated.<br />it's ridiculous. you're a good guy i'm sure -- but it's all built on never getting an education, just being indoctrinated, having outside views suppressed, omitted, or distorted. using inspirational speeches to get people to stop thinking about any of it.<br />it's just nuts and ridiculous and yes, a lot of fun in some ways and powerful in some ways. but that's what the commies said in russia when they had their rallies for a worker empowered world future -- and they did the same nonsense: no one could leave the country ever. no one could view outside material of any kind. any one who dissented from the party line was in trouble and sent to a labor camp.<br />and all the while they said "communism is obviously superior and the truth, and the west decadent and materialistic and weak."<br />it's so obviously a ding-dong controlling authority that can't afford exposure to the outside world -- and orthodoxy is organized the same -- what are you defending???<br />My cousins are kiruv people and are utterly controlling and absurd on the level of intellectual debate. they do it because it makes them feel good about their choices, keeps them up and involved.<br />look: you're a good person i know. but really, look in a mirror and say: Mitch my boy, you are a control freak! And get back to me.<br />TuvAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-1378129683398099682014-02-07T14:36:40.852-05:002014-02-07T14:36:40.852-05:00I wish you menuchas hanefesh, simcha, love, nachas...I wish you menuchas hanefesh, simcha, love, nachas from your family and all good things.<br /><br />May we all merit to grow into the sweet and beautiful people we would like to become.<br /><br /><br /><br />Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02436798147256281379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-89541825560539602962014-02-07T14:00:12.325-05:002014-02-07T14:00:12.325-05:00Typical response. I've seen this all over the ...Typical response. I've seen this all over the place--when you disagree with, leave, or are critical of the orthodox community, people are often labeled either anti-Semites, self-hating Jews, people in pain or suffering from bitterness, mentally ill, or a whole host of other things, in order to release the orthodox community from any responsibility for their own behavior. Of course, not everyone in the orthodox community is like this, but there is an unfortunate prevalence towards the exact behavior you've been illustrating here. It was really just a matter of time until you tried this well-worn tactic.<br /><br />bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-27969268109045571112014-02-07T13:53:08.564-05:002014-02-07T13:53:08.564-05:00Of course that is not true. No fraud here. Who cou...Of course that is not true. No fraud here. Who could come up with such a character like me. This is the real deal. Strange you would call this a fraud when I just mentioned that everything I have written is true? <br /><br />All good educators play to the audience they are speaking to. This audience and this site needs the kind of writing I have been providing to give a fair counterbalance to the misinformation/anger/hatred of Judaism they will receive on this site. <br /><br />You are using your own personal shovel and vendetta that you have and your own personal negative experiences to try and dissuade people from a life of Torah. <br /><br />This whole site is nothing but a way to deal with your pain. To actually start a blog about this issue must signify that you are in great pain. I feel for you and wish you true comfort. <br /><br />However, I do not believe one's own bad experience justifies a public assault on an entire community and way of life. Especially one that has miraculously existed through blood, sweat and tears for 3500 years. <br /><br />I wish you well and hope that you will make the right choices in the future.<br />Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02436798147256281379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-77285364287216738112014-02-07T10:58:12.630-05:002014-02-07T10:58:12.630-05:00So you're admitting to being a fraud?
Now, pe...So you're admitting to being a fraud? <br />Now, people reading your comments will be hesitant to trust any kiruv professionals, figuring that based on the examples you've set, you say and act one way yet believe and act differently, depending on your audience. There are a lot of readers who see this blog. (Check the page views at the bottom.) It's incredible that you believe in kiruv and Judaism, yet are willing to chance turning so many people off. <br />Would you like another shovel for the hole you've been digging?<br />bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-35717829418295999902014-02-07T09:15:33.300-05:002014-02-07T09:15:33.300-05:00We should not make fun of reform Jews (except thei...We should not make fun of reform Jews (except their leaders) just reform ideology which is a clear historically, statistically proven failure. But its not even necessary as the average non frum Jew could care less about his/her reform temple. Best thing is to invite them for Shabbos and to learn with them.<br />Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02436798147256281379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-42519313886155967762014-02-07T09:08:06.027-05:002014-02-07T09:08:06.027-05:00I am starting to like you AM. You sound very sensi...I am starting to like you AM. You sound very sensible. I take the same approach when I meet people. My comments on this blog are much more intense than I am in person. I am only playing this role here because this is an anti-Torah site with an underlying attitude of pure hate. (see sidebar links for proof-preferably before you eat as nausea will ensue). Hence I am giving over clear unambiguous generalities. I realize I may offend, but that is ok because every single thing I have said thus far is true. It will make a roshem eventually. In person I am a mellow, calm and (some would say) cool guy. I answer everything straightforward but I don't care if I am not understood right away, as long as a roshem (impression) is set that is fine. It may be five ten years before I am understood. (parents have to do the same with their children btw) I can live with that. Its taken me many years to understand things my Rabbeim have told me as well. We are all works in progress. We are filled with so much potential to grow. Let's all keep moving forward b'simcha!<br /><br />Yasher Ko'ach! Hatzlocha rabbah!Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02436798147256281379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-52893872978090159962014-02-06T18:27:10.857-05:002014-02-06T18:27:10.857-05:00To Anonymous 4:21 PM,
Fair points. Even telling ...To Anonymous 4:21 PM,<br /><br />Fair points. Even telling students that an environment is magnetic and that they should proceed with caution can be deceptive. Maybe it is just a tactic I use to ease their minds to allow for the deception to occur. Maybe, but that type of thinking can continue ad absurdum. What would I have to say that would be acceptable? Consider this. I do want them to go and learn Torah. I do want them to incorporate those values into their Weltanschauung. I do want them to see a living example (albeit extreme) of an opposing view to western Materialism. BUT, I do not want them to be brainwashed (as opposed to Mitch's Ode to Clean Brains above). I do not want them to reject their internal sense of right and wrong. I do not want them to think that everything they knew is a lie and now they have seen the light. I do not want those things because I believe they are untrue, not because I am afraid that their parents will now hate Kiruv and start a blog and put me out of a job. I walk a fine line, I know. I do not expect you to believe that I am a lone saint. There is a spectrum of views within the Kiruv world. I have MANY friends and colleagues who think like me. There are many who do not. There are nuances. Just as not all OTD Jews are Atheists, not all Kiruv Rabbis use cult tactics. Again, some do. Many do not. The reason why this article is so profound is because it allows for a nuanced view of reality, one closer to Truth. Is there something that any Jew can gain from spending time in a place such as Lakewood and experiencing that culture? I believe so. Can it inspire someone to a closer connection to Judaism even in a non-Orthodox way? I believe so. Will some people be "mystically" attracted to that way of life and therefore reject the Judaism of their childhood? I believe so. Is that always bad? Always good? Probably neither. The key is for people to be informed. That is the most that I can do. I have the right to my opinion that secular college students have a lot to learn from the Orthodox (even UO) world. I have the right to encourage them to experience it first hand. I have the responsibility to be upfront about what they are going to experience. They have the responsibility to make informed decisions.<br /><br />As I have commented here before, I understand the skepticism towards what I am saying. Who knows more than me that many Mekarvim think that they are saving poor, lost, souls from meaninglessness, wasted lives. But say what you will, I do not think like that? You may disagree with me in respect to my positive views of exposing Jews to Orthodoxy, and I respect your right to do so. But please don't accuse me personally of lying and deceiving when you do not know my intentions. You can postulate theories about others' motives, but if you want to know mine, I'd prefer if you just ask me.<br /><br />Respectfully,<br /><br />AM<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-18854130866475891572014-02-06T17:50:36.062-05:002014-02-06T17:50:36.062-05:00Wow. Are you for real?
"The great and holy Je...Wow. Are you for real?<br />"The great and holy Jews of Lakewood?" "the "Deform" movement?" Women in the secular world are "unpaid harlots?" <br />Just... wow.<br /><br />bec, I think this comment does more to warn people about the dangers of kiruv than anything you could ever write.<br /><br />BTW, Mitch, do you think that women don't get anything out of sex? That's what calling them "unpaid harlots" for having sex outside of marriage implies: that they aren't getting anything out of it. That the only reason for a woman to have sex is to appease her husband or for money.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-47145640139273622002014-02-06T17:20:44.071-05:002014-02-06T17:20:44.071-05:00Looks like you missed your chance to have me write...Looks like you missed your chance to have me write that article up, Mitch. But if you'd like to write something up about it as a guest post, let me know. You can send your finished article to the email on the sidebar. And I won't even charge you for it.bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-79867551475733880982014-02-06T17:13:45.587-05:002014-02-06T17:13:45.587-05:00Okay, sure, Mitch. You provide the balanced resear...Okay, sure, Mitch. You provide the balanced research materials to adequately prove your thesis. If you can send them to the email on the sidebar within the next five minutes, I'll write it up for you for $800. That's my going rate for a rush job on this topic.bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-64634363378507025152014-02-06T17:03:40.086-05:002014-02-06T17:03:40.086-05:00Mitch, how can you afford to spend all day on the ...Mitch, how can you afford to spend all day on the computer complaining about this blog? Most of us have jobs to go to. Do you?<br /><br />Mohammad Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-10128685135993518122014-02-06T16:58:37.178-05:002014-02-06T16:58:37.178-05:00Hey Bec--here's the real challenge--How about ...Hey Bec--here's the real challenge--How about an article about the real deceptive kiruv as I stated earlier "It really does not matter anyway because the reform movement is on its last legs anyway. The members of the temples are more than half non Jewish at this point. These non jews who think they are reform Jews are the ones who have been deceived and duped a thousand times more than "orthodox kiruv" program ever. Talk about deception. Wow. That's the real deal."<br /><br />Consider yourself challenged. Cmon that has to be worthy of a "stopkiruv" site. I am looking forward to the article and will check tomorrow to see if you have posted it. Thank you and G-d Bless.Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02436798147256281379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-6553823442851373842014-02-06T16:56:35.957-05:002014-02-06T16:56:35.957-05:00Do you think non Orthodox people should be courteo...Do you think non Orthodox people should be courteous of you? That is a serious question. I assume you do, but I am trying to wrap my mind around the double standard you present. Orthodox Jews can make fun of Reform Jews, but Reform Jews should be respectful and tolerant of Orthodox Jews. There is an eerie similarity between this line of thought and what I'd expect to hear from a White Supremacist. You are doing Orthodoxy no favours I'm afraid.<br /><br />ShmuelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-48100406495452149192014-02-06T16:53:42.569-05:002014-02-06T16:53:42.569-05:00Alright.Alright.bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-43598285859385624612014-02-06T16:50:10.907-05:002014-02-06T16:50:10.907-05:00Take the site down and replace it with site about ...Take the site down and replace it with site about the greatness of living a committed Torah life, full of love, learning, chesed, ahavas Hashem, Yeras Hashem. Until you take this site down you are not on my side.<br /><br />Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02436798147256281379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-79572252141124793392014-02-06T16:48:12.597-05:002014-02-06T16:48:12.597-05:00OK Mitch, whatever you say. Now toddle along &...OK Mitch, whatever you say. Now toddle along & don't let us keep you from your students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-20796565122448139572014-02-06T16:32:24.514-05:002014-02-06T16:32:24.514-05:00I'm on your side, Mitch.I'm on your side, Mitch.bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-82685615879513123802014-02-06T16:31:26.747-05:002014-02-06T16:31:26.747-05:00As if I was not nauseas enough from the ones you a...As if I was not nauseas enough from the ones you already have posted. Its like the losers hall of fame over there.<br /><br />Still hoping you will take this site down. Or at least the sidebars. <br /><br />Once you have failed messiah up its an open sign you are working for the dark side.<br /><br />Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02436798147256281379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-920432936735289232014-02-06T16:26:27.476-05:002014-02-06T16:26:27.476-05:00AM: Good points. Well thought out. I tell my stude...AM: Good points. Well thought out. I tell my students the same thing. You can't lose yourself and become something you are not. You will fall apart. The goal is to keep all the good things that you do and enjoy and now add more good things, get rid of the bad and just keep learning and surrounding yourself with growth oriented people. <br /><br />Please remember though, you are not a Mekarev. Only Hashem decides who is coming close or not.<br /><br />It sounds like semantics but it is a crucial hashkofa.<br /><br />Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02436798147256281379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-81030550948456069912014-02-06T16:24:10.217-05:002014-02-06T16:24:10.217-05:00Oh! You've caught me, Mitch! I was openly bein...Oh! You've caught me, Mitch! I was openly being open about some of the blogs I sometimes read! <br />But thanks, there's one I need to put up, so I'm glad you reminded me about my much neglected sidebar.bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.com