tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post3583771887193094843..comments2023-10-23T14:16:46.342-04:00Comments on Jewish Outreach: What Your Rabbi Isn't Telling You: Is Oorah's Girl Zone Camp Ethical?bechttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-7092765765439171732018-11-28T13:23:42.932-05:002018-11-28T13:23:42.932-05:00I have to laugh at calling kiruv "brainwashin...I have to laugh at calling kiruv "brainwashing". We dont call history or science class brainwashing even thought they do that too. The object of OORAH is to help people connect with their jewish roots and they make no false claims about that. Connecting to judaism means connecting to torah. <br />Rochelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17870402575417129329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-88865470310930811352018-10-23T20:11:05.453-04:002018-10-23T20:11:05.453-04:00This post is very interesting to read. Sometimes, ...<br />This post is very interesting to read. Sometimes, I will visit again to this site. Thanks for the information<br />Click Here : <a href="https://www.micoequipment.com/wheel-excavators-for-sale/caterpillar-used-wheel-excavator-cat-m315-7ml02767" rel="nofollow">caterpillar used wheel excavator</a><br />Emily Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746320358988998120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-82950500808113234772017-11-10T14:34:51.081-05:002017-11-10T14:34:51.081-05:00The zone camp is a disaster. Boys side they were r...The zone camp is a disaster. Boys side they were running wild killing rabbits and the director did nothing. Girls side also has a new camp director and she's beyond nasty. I will never send my girls back as long as she's there and I sent for 5 years. The camp has majorly gone downhill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-35502722045497147512017-03-30T21:21:18.825-04:002017-03-30T21:21:18.825-04:00The constant ear aching blasting of music with lyr...The constant ear aching blasting of music with lyrics like"Shabbos Shabbos we keep Shabbos" or "kippa kippah kippa how I love my kippa it makes me feel closer to Hashem" are akin to classic brainwashing. That sort of thing associated with fun activities will lead to strong triggers in the mind to religious behavior. It's fundamentally anti free will, and anti intellectual Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-91741584044966278962017-03-30T21:16:23.551-04:002017-03-30T21:16:23.551-04:00Calling bullshit here. As someone with recent firs...Calling bullshit here. As someone with recent firsthand experience, the brainwashy methodology operated at the zone has serious effects on peopleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-85059698118925713712017-03-30T21:12:48.320-04:002017-03-30T21:12:48.320-04:00Aish straight up either lies or is criminally igno...Aish straight up either lies or is criminally ignorant in their discovery seminars, especially in reference to bible codes, but to a lesser extent concerning the Kuzari "proof"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-43167241229511756992017-03-30T21:10:23.687-04:002017-03-30T21:10:23.687-04:00As a former Oorah camper I can confirm that the me...As a former Oorah camper I can confirm that the methods they use to indoctrinate people are dishonest, brainwashy,anti intellectual and unethical. Maybe ill make a blog post detailing it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-33428069102592779962016-03-16T13:30:33.945-04:002016-03-16T13:30:33.945-04:00My kids went to Oorah and had a great time. It...My kids went to Oorah and had a great time. It's just a great camp and they have fun without the pressure of "tznius" rules and rigid requirements. They also have fun keeping in touch with counselors and bunkmates throughout the year. No brainwashing. Definitely sending them there again. My kids go to Jewish day school and there were a lot of kids similar to them- modern orthodox etc. in their camp. Miriamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-42071215917211795372015-09-21T16:14:58.741-04:002015-09-21T16:14:58.741-04:00Your whole argument can be used by Jews for Jesus ...Your whole argument can be used by Jews for Jesus or any other missionary group to justify their own missionary tactics. Surely, based on your comment, you have no problem with these groups doing outreach to your children. After all, they also care for the children they are helping and they, too, share what they consider to be the most important thing which they can share. Would you condemn Jews for Jesus for promoting programs aimed towards children? If yes, I must ask you--just as you've asked me "how can you condemn people for sharing a rich heritage with children whom they honestly care about, especially when it is the fact that they care for these children which pushes them to share this heritage?"<br /><br />bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-64806103572116871272015-09-21T12:45:52.319-04:002015-09-21T12:45:52.319-04:00I find this entire conversation very disturbing. O...I find this entire conversation very disturbing. Obviously, the mentors in any mentorship program will be given a different perspective than that which will be given to the children of that program. Such is the nature of any mentorship, it needs to done with tact. If a mentor for a school dropout would come and say to the kid "Hi, I'm here to help you get back to school and pull your life together" the kid would obviously not be interested in any sort of interaction with that person. The mentorship needs to be cultivated properly. That does not make it deceitful or insincere. The mentor can truly care for the child, and it is that care which ultimately creates the connection.<br />Everything in life can be looked at from different perspectives, it is all about how you spin it. We can take every marriage and say that the love is insincere, because it's based on physical attraction, we can say the love of a parent for a child is based on pride, etc etc. But such is the way of the world, people connect and share what is important to them with the people they love, and relationships develop. The mentors of Oorah care for the children they are helping, and share what they consider to be the most important thing which they can share, namely the jewish heritage and a stable life.<br />If you don't find these ideals to be important, I respect that , and you don't have to follow them. But how can you condemn people for sharing a rich heritage with children whom they honestly care about, especially when it is the fact that they care for these children which pushes them to share this heritage?<br />I consider this to be a gross case of closed mindedness, where someone else's opinion is so unimportant in your mind, that it can be given no validity at all. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-72435537564635006592015-09-20T21:02:33.274-04:002015-09-20T21:02:33.274-04:00An Oorah Staff Member,
I'm assuming that your...An Oorah Staff Member, <br />I'm assuming that your comment is in response to a comment I posted earlier in which I stated:<br />"Please explain how Oorah and Oorah staff members define "broken homes" and the percentage of children who are accepted from such. I'd also like to know the ratio of licensed therapists on staff who are equipped to provide these children from "broken homes" with the support that they need to heal."<br />The statistics that you've provided about divorce rates in North America have nothing to do with Oorah, their summer program, or this post or comments. Even if this is in response to your own comment about children coming from broken homes, it doesn't prove anything. These statistics cover all Americans, and are not limited to any one specific population. In this case, people from all walks of life--including orthodox Jews--are covered in these statistics. bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-9154539158681582082015-09-19T21:33:07.753-04:002015-09-19T21:33:07.753-04:00Although I am defending Oorah I can not I can only...Although I am defending Oorah I can not I can only give mine not Oorah's definition of "broken homes". Here is the following statistics that showed up when I googled "what percentage of kids parents are divorced." <br /><br />General children divorce statistics<br /><br />50% of all North-American children will witness the divorce of their parents. Almost half of them will also see the breakup of a parent's second marriage. (Furstenberg and others -Life Course-)<br />One out of 10 children of divorce experiences three or more parental marriage breakups. (Gallagher -The Abolition of Marriage)<br />40% of children growing up in America today are being raised without their fathers. (Wade, Horn and Busy, -Fathers, Marriage and Welfare Reform, Hudson Institute Executive Briefing, 1997)<br />50% of all the children born to married parents today, will experience the divorce of their parents before they are 18 years old. (Fagan, Fitzgerald, Rector, -The Effects of Divorce On America-)An oorah staff membernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-16638079588887649462015-09-19T15:44:07.476-04:002015-09-19T15:44:07.476-04:00What kind of elitist, bigoted BS are you spewing, ...What kind of elitist, bigoted BS are you spewing, An oorah staff member? You sound like a caricature of Miss Manners ("When the parents of these kids see the more refined way their kids act they to get involved in Oorah.") News flash, the rest of the world is not undisciplined or unrefined. If you were selling a Jewish version of Cotillion I'd roll my eyes and leave you alone. But you're not, you're tricking kids into rejecting their own families in favor of a life that you, in your haughty arrogance, aparently deem more righteous. How dare you!<br /><br />Been There Heard ThatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-90266787641187071092015-09-19T13:56:15.202-04:002015-09-19T13:56:15.202-04:00I also want to address your use of the term "...I also want to address your use of the term "hate."<br /><br />You state: "To respond to your hateful attacks on their staff guide book.... And hating on other people is not going to make this world a better place." <br /><br />What has been said that is hateful? Please copy and paste the exact statements made in the post that you believe are hateful. <br />It seems that you have been taught to believe that criticism is equivalent to hatred. This seems to stem from the same school of thought that believes that any criticism of Judaism or more specifically, orthodox Judaism, is equivalent to anti-Semitism and/or anti-orthodoxy. Criticism is simply an analysis of something's qualities. If you were to make a kugel that wasn't particularly good and someone told you what was wrong with it, would you accuse them of being hateful? Or would you just accept that they are criticizing your cooking--possibly so that you'll possibly understand that maybe there are mistakes you're making? Telling you to reduce the salt isn't hateful, it's helpful criticism and can help you to improve your cooking. <br />bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-87720520684002489172015-09-19T10:36:10.358-04:002015-09-19T10:36:10.358-04:00Thanks for commenting and welcome to this blog. I ...Thanks for commenting and welcome to this blog. I read your comment and I have to say that I'm not shocked by your response. <br /><br />You stated, An Oorah Staff Member, that "Since many of Oorah's campers come like is very normal outside the frum world from broken homes." <br />Please explain how Oorah and Oorah staff members define "broken homes" and the percentage of children who are accepted from such. I'd also like to know the ratio of licensed therapists on staff who are equipped to provide these children from "broken homes" with the support that they need to heal.<br /><br />You state: "And they know these staff members are there for anything they need they grow and blossom in ways like never before. Is it then such a wonder that many of the ones who are not already in a Jewish school want to switch out from public school."<br />Actually, it is a wonder and I'll tell you why. Camp and school are very different. Children, on their own, don't equate the two. Unless Oorah's staff is consistently indoctrinating these children over the summer and grooming them to equate going to summer camp with attending a Jewish school, then there is no reason for them to make that leap. What is it that you're telling them that makes them suddenly believe the two are equal? <br /><br />You state: "During the year many of these campers feel like they don't matter to anyone. And than during the summer because of the Torah values that the staff members share they feel that everyone around them cares. Is it really then so shocking that these kids dream summer to summer. Torah mate call to Torah mate call."<br />Let's break this in two. What makes you say that these kids feel that they don't matter to anyone? Are interviews done? Please provide proof of this. Otherwise, it sounds like you've been indoctrinated to believe that children from non-orthodox homes are suffering in some way, and you are treating them as if they are victims. It sounds as if you've bought into the tinok shenishba myth. <br />As for children looking forward to camp during the school year, that sounds similar to so many non-orthodox camps! Kids have a great time AND they spend all year excited to go back to camp and excited about camp reunions. Mazal tov, you have a nice camp program. Maybe lay off the indoctrination.<br /><br />You state: "These kids become frum because they realize it as a better way of life. And hating on other people is not going to make this world a better place."<br />No, these kids are too young to be able to make huge lifestyle choices. If your younger siblings were sent away to an exciting fun-filled summer camp for several weeks that was run by Jews for Jesus--with a caring staff who insisted on making a kesher with each camper and following up all year, as well as teaching them on a 24/7 schedule about how their values are better than that of their parents, do you really believe that they wouldn't fall prey to these influences and come home wanting to be like the caring people at camp? They'd see it as a better way of life as well--because of these influences and would probably react the same way you are hoping these non-orthodox campers will react--with excitement and a desire to be like their counselors, and the urge to get their parents to change their lives.bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-2343706686263392042015-09-18T17:34:53.025-04:002015-09-18T17:34:53.025-04:00Here are some of the parts of my original post you...Here are some of the parts of my original post you may have intentionally not read. <br /><br />"But rather by living an example of a proper Torah Jew."<br /><br />"When the parents of these kids see the more refined way their kids act they to get involved in Oorah. " <br /><br />"When the campers see middos that most of them don't find in their house. And feel at the same time they are in a much healthier and happier environment."<br /><br />"These kids become frum because they realize it as a better way of life." <br /><br />That's beside for the point that yes for a child growing up feeling loved is in important. And yes it does usually come from the people that care. Just like hate usually comes from the people that don't.<br /><br />Can I ask if you are you ALSO speaking from personal experiences in the camp?An oorah staff membernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-51231364649295040622015-09-18T16:55:14.961-04:002015-09-18T16:55:14.961-04:00What you describe, An oorah staff member, is a cul...What you describe, An oorah staff member, is a cult recruitment technique called Love Bombing. You shower the kids with love and attention and presto! they glom onto you. It is contrived, pre-meditated & done for the purpose of recruiting new members. There is nothing honorable or honest in what you're doing.<br /><br />Been There Heard ThatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-36126295811316799802015-09-18T16:24:04.309-04:002015-09-18T16:24:04.309-04:00As someone who spent this past year in one of Oora...As someone who spent this past year in one of Oorah's camps . I will try to shed some light on what Oorah tries and successfully does. The Kiruv that is done is not by "brainwashing" them to think what we want them to think. But rather by living an example of a proper Torah Jew. When the campers see middos that most of them don't find in their house. And feel at the same time they are in a much healthier and happier environment. The also want to be like that. The devoted staff members of Oorah create the "kesher" you talk about by genuinely caring about every camper by having a sensitivity that you don't see many other places and by having endless amount of patience. Since many of Oorah's campers come like is very normal outside the frum world from broken homes . When they come to a camp that has close to ratio of one staff member per a camper. And they know these staff members are there for anything they need they grow and blossom in ways like never before. Is it then such a wonder that many of the ones who are not already in a Jewish school want to switch out from public school. During the year many of these campers feel like they don't matter to anyone. And than during the summer because of the Torah values that the staff members share they feel that everyone around them cares. Is it really then so shocking that these kids dream summer to summer. Torah mate call to Torah mate call. While I was learning with my Torah mate this summer he turned to me and said "Did you know if you come back next year we get to be Torah mates with each other again." This kids can't imagine a world with out Oorah and it's wonderful staff. Oh which by the way doesn't get paid. When the parents of these kids see the more refined way their kids act they to get involved in Oorah. To respond to your hateful attacks on their staff guide book. You may allow yourself to get a major misunderstanding when you read. But when the ones who it was written for have a four hour orientation on the 1st day of camp. No mistake is made on what they're supposed to be doing. These kids become frum because they realize it as a better way of life. And hating on other people is not going to make this world a better place. Looking forward to spending succos in the Zone.An oorah staff membernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-35565512844085572202015-08-20T18:18:34.098-04:002015-08-20T18:18:34.098-04:00Thanks for weighing in, Anonymous. Glad you had a ...Thanks for weighing in, Anonymous. Glad you had a great experience!bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-81639226943530280212015-08-20T17:24:43.120-04:002015-08-20T17:24:43.120-04:00As a former oorah staff member,
I would like to sa...As a former oorah staff member,<br />I would like to say I have never received a letter looking like your sample letter, nor do I believe the program is hiding anything. In fact, there are photographers employed to video and take pictures of every aspect of camp in order for the parents to see exactly what their kids are doing. Oorah has given me a lot it teaches tolerance and love, in fact there is even an optional early morning "coffee club"<br /> for any camper or staff who would like to talk about the importance of being nice, accepting, and the power of hurtful speech. And that is just one of the programs... I loved the camp, I adore my torahmate, and it is my PRIVLIDGE to keep in touch with her! i'm sorry you have issues with it, maybe go for a day and check it out and see what an awesome place it is :-)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08525002151902588094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-80684719535675256752014-01-17T03:34:45.860-05:002014-01-17T03:34:45.860-05:00"i did not and do not discourage kids from di..."i did not and do not discourage kids from disagreeing and forming their own opinions - however we show them the right way to view things..."<br /><br />So, it's OK to form their own opinions because you'll fix them to the "right" way to view the world? Is that what you're saying? I'd be embarrassed to have anyone think I was that righteous, arrogant and closed minded. <br /><br />Your statement also proves Bec's original point that Oorah is a brainwashing camp. By saying that their way of viewing the world is wrong and that your way is "right" is just unspeakably wrong. Your mission is to make people view the world the way you do, whether they sign up for that or not. Whether it's deceptive or not. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-59644504900836434222014-01-16T21:58:15.398-05:002014-01-16T21:58:15.398-05:00I want to add that you never even gave any concret...I want to add that you never even gave any concrete evidence to back up any of what you said. You just launched a bunch of ad hominem attacks--and you did so as a representative of Oorah. How does that help people who read this blog see Oorah in a positive light?bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-59750791976129350882014-01-16T21:42:30.359-05:002014-01-16T21:42:30.359-05:00What makes this lashon hara?
You put me down sever...What makes this lashon hara?<br />You put me down several times. Does this statement of yours "If someone puts something else down, it's only becuase they need to use it as a stepping stool to make themselves higher" apply to you as well?<br />You wrote: "however we show them the right way to view things..." What is this "right" way? Is it your way? What makes your way the right way?<br />This made me laugh: "I see that you're closed minded." I believe you're projecting. :) Thanks for further clarifying your comments. I wish you much hatzlacha.<br />bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-30477608247085642122014-01-16T21:37:00.758-05:002014-01-16T21:37:00.758-05:00Yes, people can have their own opinion. However, i... Yes, people can have their own opinion. However, it comes to a point where it is pointless, lashon hara, and shows something extremely negative about someone when they speak this way. You know what they say: "If someone puts something else down, it's only becuase they need to use it as a stepping stool to make themselves higher"...no offense but yea...And yes, as a oorah staff member, i did not and do not discourage kids from disagreeing and forming their own opinions - however we show them the right way to view things...Ok you obviously are very firm in your belief...I see that you're closed minded and nothing I say will make you change your mind so I'm just gona stop here. Have a great day:)))Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3965506036256262699.post-193534776745894712014-01-16T21:05:34.946-05:002014-01-16T21:05:34.946-05:00You state: "You must have gone through someth...You state: "You must have gone through something in your life, or just have a sad life to have said this..."<br /><br />Are you saying that people who disagree with your point of view have something wrong in their lives and/or that there is something wrong with them?<br />This statement may be even more offensive than your previous statement. Please tell me that this is not how you represent an organization that you claim is "unbelievably amazing." I think you may be doing them more harm than good.<br />bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.com